Various Questions about profile and medical conditions

[quietmedic]

I apologize if it's been asked before, but, here goes:

Does anyone know specifically how much certain medical problems will lower your profile?

If one (theoretically) has flat feet, how much (number of points) would that lower your profile? Are you allowed to wear orthotic inserts in your boots?

Secondly, in terms of medical problems in particular...if one has hypothyroidism (theorietically)? This is a condition where your thyroid gland is underactive, and as such your metabolism and energy levels are affected...in milder cases, you will just be tired. As long as you take your daily pill, you are fine. How much would this lower one's profile? Also, would it be possible to "forget" to tell the IDF doctor about it, and sneak your pills in with you to Tironut? Allow me to stress, such a condition poses no risk to you or other soldiers...

I've heard of people with asthma joining the IDF, and having had to be less than truthful on the IDF medical in order not to be disqualified by overreaction of the IDF...and going on to be fine soldiers...

Anyone have any experience with this?

[rafi]

I apologize if it's been asked before, but, here goes:

Does anyone know specifically how much certain medical problems will lower your profile?

If one (theoretically) has flat feet, how much (number of points) would that lower your profile? Are you allowed to wear orthotic inserts in your boots?

Secondly, in terms of medical problems in particular...if one has hypothyroidism (theorietically)? This is a condition where your thyroid gland is underactive, and as such your metabolism and energy levels are affected...in milder cases, you will just be tired. As long as you take your daily pill, you are fine. How much would this lower one's profile? Also, would it be possible to "forget" to tell the IDF doctor about it, and sneak your pills in with you to Tironut? Allow me to stress, such a condition poses no risk to you or other soldiers...

I've heard of people with asthma joining the IDF, and having had to be less than truthful on the IDF medical in order not to be disqualified by overreaction of the IDF...and going on to be fine soldiers...

Anyone have any experience with this?

Get ready for the answer you do not want to hear.
And since you are not the first to ask the question, maybe it should be answered once and for all.

By lying about a medical condition you can be placing others in jeopardy, regardless of what you think. You can be stuck in the field longer than you supply yourself for. And "gettting a little tired" is more serious than you suspect, even with your promise that it "poses no risk". A commanders job is to make decisions that affect lives. And if you are suddenly where you realize maybe you were wrong, what then? Who carries your load, your share of guard duty, and so on.

Tsahal has hundreds of support jobs that are vital to the existence of the army and the existence of Israel. If you are seriously questioning whether you should lie about your health to get in, then you don't belong in Tsahal. And if your response is that it does not jeopardize others, I have one response: then why are you afraid of a doctors opinion?

Think of how fast things escalated last month. There was no chance to get the "right people" in place or prepare the A team. We went with what we had. And yes, once again, people who lied put other soldiers in jeopardy.

Rafi

[Dan from Boston]

Quietmedic,

Please post an introduction in the appropriate forum before posting again.

In response to your questions, I'm with Rafi in advocating against "forgetting" to mention medical problems you have that may affect your ability to serve in the IDF. Flat feet will not necessarily keep you out of a combat unit. From what others have written online or told me, doctors will often ask soldiers with flat feet if it will stop them from performing 100%. If the soldier says no, the doctor may choose to give the soldier the go-ahead to serve in a combat unit.

I've never heard of the other condition you're asking about. I believe some medications are allowed by the IDF, but if there are side-effects then that will often dramatically lower a soldier's profile. A common anti-acne pill, for example, disqualifies soldiers from combat duty.

You'll probably just have to go and see what they say. If the doctors don't give you the profile you want, you can try to fight the decision, or go to pre-basic training and show that you can do everything that everyone else can.

Dan

[quietmedic]

First of all, rafi, let me respond to what I feel is a flaw in your response.

If you eliminated all the soldiers that (voluntarily) joined, even just little bit, in order "to go home with a rifle", or for the honor, or kavod, or whatever, I would venture to say you would probably lose more than half the Israeli Army. "Mitoch shelo leshma, ba lashma"... speaking as someone who has been a member of several Jewish social organizations, 0% of people join for truly altruistic reasons. Everybody has their own motives. What makes the difference is if they can carry their weight. Of all the soldiers who joined to "carry a gun", i'd bet you would find many who rose to the occasion when the occasion called for it, as well as many who joined "for Israel" who ended up giving less than all. Furthermore, I'd imagine those joining just for "gun and fun" wouldn't make it very far in combat tirount. If a soldier can make it through all the 30km Masaot carrying stretchers in Tironut, I find it hard to believe they would suddenly lose that ability in combat.

I am not in a position to question your boots-on-the-ground experience, but I don't know if you inidividually interviewed all the underperforming soldiers to discover that they, for the most part, joined for fun. Furthermore, I don't think anyone in their right mind doesn't realise what they are getting into, when they join the IDF, regardless of whether they carry a gun or not. Everyone who joins voluntarily is "joining for their own needs", whether that need is 98% altruistic or 2% altruistic. I understand your premise, bit I think it's a bit naive.

That being said, my qualifications for judging my medical condition is mainly the fact that it is Iwho has had this condition!! I know how it affects me, how it doesn't affect me, and what level of performance it allows me, better than any doctor does. Furthermore, I've been an EMT/Medic for the better part of a decade, so I have a bit of medical background.

Furthermore, I have experience with authorities in the States that overeact to medications. See for example the Federal Aviation Administration. They have paranoid, extremely restrictive medical requirements for pilots, to the point that many, many pilots lie to the FAA doctors, and there are no shortage of organizations dedicated to defending pilots who have been medically disqualified.

In consideration of that, and in light of the massive beurocratic mess, disorganization and utter chaos that is the IDF, as I have seen with my own eyes, I would not venture to guess that they would be very "accomodating" or "understanding" to anyone, nor would I imagine that one has the slightest chance of asking them to "work with you".

As for an introduction, I will post one asap.

[rafi]

I do not wish to respond to your response number 1 - well, everybody does it. It is wrong.

In a controlled environment, like basic, you can get your meds by returning to your room. I have no doubt you would be able to get through basic. And chances are at a regular base you might have the same luxury. But what of units like the 77th? They were thrown on Lorries and ferried up to Lebanon from the West Bank, taking watever they had in a duffel bag, which they didn't see again for two weeks plus. So how does someone maintain their meds?

I disagree with you about your ability to judge how you can perform under any circumstances. Want isn't always ability. I am glad that the IDF and in fact the FAA agrees with me and not you. (I fly frequently for a living)

The last thing I wish to say is that I think you misunderstand the concept of "work with me" in Tsahal. You will be worked with throughout your service. I seldom, if ever stood soldiers for trial. My best friend to this day, and my Magad, always prided himself on never putting someone in prison after 42 years in Tsahal. We took personal interest in each and every one of our soldiers, and made certain they understood their role in the unit. We "worked with them" to help them grow, in some cases teaching them to read, in other cases giving them cash when needed, or bringing them home with us.

It all comes down to "being yashar", and that is impossible if your very existance in Tsahal is predicated on a lie. Some people simply have trouble with the truth. You speak about joining MAHAL which has a cut off age of 22. And in this post you state: Furthermore, I've been an EMT/Medic for the better part of a decade, so I have a bit of medical background.

[quietmedic]

I could easily put enough meds in just one pocket for about 4 months of service...but enough of this tit-tat banter. I understand your point, and appreciate your input, and I will have to see what will be.

As for the chronology, I am not trying to get into Machal...unfortunately, they did lower the age, for what reason I don't know. I am 26. At this point, I am aiming for at least Shlav bet, but as I have been told by peers it is a joke, I am considering trying to push for actual service, which, although not pashut, can be done. I've heard many stories.

It is more diffucult, because, as I mentioned, the Army itself doesn't seem to know what is flying, and all attempts I have made to gain information from them, either about Shlav Bet or Sadir service, have been utterly useless. Visiting Lishkat Giyus in Jerusalem was not much more helpful than visiting a Tel Aviv teen lounge.

[tavorlior]

LYING IS A SERIOUS OFFENSE IN THE I.D.F. -- DESPITE THE FACT MOST PEOPLE -- RON, YOU CAN ADMIT OFFICERS ARE INCLUDED IN THIS GROUP. AND RON IS CORRECT, YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THE I.D.F. COMBAT SECTION IF YOU WILL ENDANGER OTHERS, INCLUDING YOURSELF. THAT BEING SAID -- SINCE RON'S COMMENTS COME FROM A LOT OF EXPERIENCE AND DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH IN PARTICULAR -- I HAD A MAVKATZ IN EGOZ WHO HAD VERY SERIOUS PROBLEMS WITH HIS FEET, SO SERIOUS THAT (A) HE TRIED TO GET THE SAMAL TO REPLACE HIM ON OUR MASAH FOR THE RED FLASH FOR OUR BROWN BERETS AND (B) HE WAS FORCED TO SIT OUT ALMOST ALL -- YES, READ IT AGAIN IF YOU CANNOT BELIEVE IT -- OF HIS BASIC TRAINING IN SHIMSHON. ANOTHER MAVKATZ IN EGOZ -- HE WAS NY FRIEND'S -- HAD A TORN MINISCUS IN HIS KNEE. AND THIS CAN DEFINITELY INTERFERE WITH RUNNING IN AN EMERGENCY SITUATION. BUT HE TOO DEALT WITH IT. I DO HAVE TO SAY -- AND I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH RON ON THIS POINT -- THAT THE I.D.F. HAS AN OVERLY CAUTIOUS PHYSICAL PROFILING SYSTEM THAT IS NOT LOGICAL AND IS IN PART BASED ON HAVING BEEN SUED BY SOLDIERS WHO LATER GOT INJURED BECAUSE THEY EITHER LIED -- AS RON POINTED OUT -- OR HID THE INJURY. THAT BEING SAID, THERE ARE MANY MEN WHO SERVED IN THE INFANTRY -- ME INCLUDED -- WHO MINIMIZED OUR BACK PROBLEMS AND LATER PAID A HEAVY PRICE. I AM STILL A 97 BECAUSE THE I.D.F. REFUSED TO LOWER THE PROFILE AND THAT IS FINE. BUT ONE HAS TO BE OBJECTIVE ABOUT THIS AND TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY WHAT RON WROTE AND BALANCE THIS WITH THE REALITY THAT IF YOU HAVE A GENUINELY MANAGEABLE PROBLEM, THEN PLEASE DO NOT PUT YOURSELF IN THE POSITION OF HAVING TO LIE ABOUT IT, IF YOU ARE NOT ASKED. A GOOD ATHLETE KNOWS HOW TO MANAGE HIS PROBLEMS. AND IF YOU CANNOT, THERE IS THE ARTILLERY WHERE THE STRESS ON THE BODY IS NOT THAT HARD EXCEPT MAYBE ON THE BACK, DEPENDING ON YOUR JOB. ORTHODICS ARE ALLOWED, EVEN IN SOME SPECIAL FORCES UNITS.